3. I dont recall ever treating Velour in that fashion. From the church folks, I knew, it was dont bother us for the most part. He waited for my mother to leave, was very stable, then just let go. The point of it is to not enable the bad behavior. I can never forget the dead that were dragged in off I-95 into our ER. Quoting or summarizing her words is fine, but to point blank say she is against treatment for alcoholics is wrong when she did not say that. Yes, that daughter needs HELP!!! Sproul was an advocate of Calvinism in his many print, audio, and video publications, and advocated the Thomistic (classical) approaches to Christian apologetics, less common among Reformed apologists, most of whom prefer presuppositionalism. At no time did I say that R.C. It was not too long until the did he know the Lord questions started, did I witness to him, you know his blood is on your hands if he is not saved God will hold you accountable A few years later my brother in law was dying and I went to see him, very long story, and I shared with him the Gospel and the love of Christ, He accepted Christ, my church family reminded me that almost all death bed conversions are false conversions and most likely my brother in law died in his sins and went on to a Christless eternity. Please explain to us how her logic is flawed. throw him out of the house. I am not the one who is saying how people should get people into treatment programs. Barbara wasnt saying that RC Jr should be thrown out of the church because hes an alcoholic (although some might argue driving drunk with your kids in the car might qualify). Sproul, Sr., might want to get a more personal glimpse into the man to whom many have looked for spiritual guidance and wisdom. R C Sproul Junior needs to be put out of the church and that needs to be very publicly done because he has been so significant at Ligonier. Drunk/ drug driving maims and kills. I advocate throwing him out because hes a wolf in sheeps clothing and we should be far more concerned about protecting sheep from wolves than we are for getting wolves sober. Should alcoholics and drug addicts be enabled? You werent part of a church as a leader. Having said that, I suggest you read the verses I gave (1 Cor 5:11-13). On 6/2/17,SpinderellaSproulpostedSpinderella Sproul: Lessons In Spin With RC Sproul Jr. Having failed tomeet the legal criteriaof having his criminal case accepted by the Allen County Drug Court, RC Sproul Jr appeared on June 2, 2017 in Allen County Indiana Superior Court before Judge Samuel Keirns for a pre-trial status conference. So no, there is no authoritative structure. Velour said, Some here believe that people with addictions should be kicked out of the church. However, I also get nauseated if I drink more than 8 ounces of wine. By the way, you have posted before what area of medicine you worked in. I am glad you got help and that your life is better. How would permitting Sproul Jr. to remain a pastor, or in regular attendance at any church, treat his alcoholism, or treat or correct his tendency to visit cheating sites, or to bully other people? The Bible says that those who profess to be brothers in Christ and are drunkards need to be expelled from the church. Sproul Jr and his drunk lifestyle etc. Sick lot. which is not that far off base: he needs to be born again as this persistent pattern of behaviour shows he is NOT regenerate and is NOT in Christ at all. It was in response to this. Please read and then perhaps you will be able to respond according to what I ACTUALLY said. He should face consequences for it. (RSJs life definitely qualifies, sad to say.) Will this 501(c)3 religious professional be held accountable for his use of improper judgement and child care endangerment? However, it must have been difficult to try to find yourself in the shadow of RC1 and all that entailed. I have worked in an alcoholic facility and have lost loved ones to alcoholism. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous.) So I am left with confusion. More than likely his therapy is with someone lacking the qualifications, such as a pastor fan-boy giving him counseling. Also, it might be reasonable to assume that since Lisa didnt specifically state that RC Jr had an AA or CR sponsor hes probably not in an alky support group. Dee and Deb have written how many horrific cases here of people who have been subjected to Biblical Church Discipline? Not only did Christian solutions not work for my depression and anxiety (prayer didnt work, Bible reading didnt work, God did not heal me, etc), but neither did the psychiatrists, psychologists, or the medications I utilized for many years. Usually a Churchill Cocktail about 1/4 inch (or a cm) of whiskey at the bottom of the glass, then fill the rest with water; dilutes the mix down to less than 3% alcohol. One or two DUIs is usually not enough. As Ive already said on Spinderella Sproul, RC Sproul Jr is unregenerate. or covetous, [going after what belongs to others] I think that was what Barbara was in part advocating for up thread. That sounds very Mark Driscoll-ian. We can do better. And she showed that she had no clue what kinds of intervention should be done for an alcoholic (or substance abuser) in getting them into treatment and getting help for their spouse and children. They did however report that his drivers license had been reinstated with no restrictions, and it was from there that I answered your question about that. is playing right into his hands and giving him exactly what he wants. In fact just this evening I went to mass followed by a going away party for our young and much beloved assistant pastor (who is being assigned by the Jesuits to another location much to all our distress). There is no gradual progression or build-up. Should you have been kicked out of church because you struggled with depression, anxiety, or any other problem? Has been dry since Nov. 29, 2016. Mr. F- if you dont agree with RC Sprouls theology that is your business and Im not interested . I think youre seeing something in their posts that is not there, or are misunderstanding their post. Perhaps she is basing it on much more than that. Sproul Jr. and even his father Sr. Do you think that this is the best use of their contributions to give to Ligonier Ministries when they are used to support someone like R.C. I learned fairly early in life to fear drunk driving. No, we have theological differences about how people in the church with addictions should be handled kicked out. So I was only saying what the Bible says. Hi Julie Anne, (Expire a life, or innocence or a reputation, or a familys resources, etc.) and me. Why do you feel its necessary to malign a godly servant like RC Sproul as if he is in some way responsible for his grown sons actions! Of course people have to want sobriety for it to work. Unfortunately four funerals.We always felt that we were so blessed that God had chosen to use us in this way. You and Barbara Roberts have never said, You know, I have no clue how to deal with substance abuse. And even if they remain in their brand of the church, its a pretty poor imitation of Christianity: all surface appearance and no substance. There are many Christians who lurk here who struggle with addictions. Some people view CR as just a Christian version of AA because it was founded by an AA leader. I dont think that an active substance abuser has a good idea of what they want many times, besides the next hit of [substance of choice]. There was a need for push back, since in the beginning you never outlined your reasons supporting R.C. But I also fully agree with you. This comment is where you brought forward Barbaras comment about the question at issue. And One Hand Washes the Other. I think many people do not understand how alcoholism changes the brain/cognitve activities of those addicted. "Who will pay for the SBCs abuse reforms over the long term? And it helped her on her road to sobriety. I know 10 years ago if someone indicated a drinking or drug problem I would simply recommended AA or NA or rehab, where at that time they would most likely be directed to attend 12 step meetings after treatment. Sproul, Jr. has a new book coming out, published by Ichthus Publications (what were they thinking???). We have friends who still go to our former church who are blind and brainwashed. You asked why my specialty was. Will his children ever step foot in a church again after seeing their father get publicly humiliated? They should face the consequences of their actions, including job loss. Sproul 2 should be kicked out of his church and that he wasnt really a believer, etc. AA in particular is seriously overrated, and even the courts know it. I did not use the word divorce. Go back and read what I said. But hed lost his wife to cancer is the same excuse his supporters used to defend him over his Ashley Madison scandal. Im not incorrect. I find it a little odd that someone would seek out people in a church to ask for names and addresses of doctors, when they can get the same information online. We will all be praying for you. According to his own theology, it does not. That does not mean that we do not also think that he should get treatment for the good of his children and his wife and the community at large. Unfortunately, drunk or sober, he espouses patriarchy, even to the point of rumored wife-spanking. When people here casually toss around excommunicating and shunning peopleit the height of cruelty and you have no idea what will happen to them or their family. (Is this still considered true? But those whove been paying close attention over the years have known that hes got a serious drinking problem. I dont think we can assume that a person not mentioning getting treatment in a blog post means they dont believe in people getting treatment. If you know you have a problem with alcohol, you need to face up to your issue and get help. Yeah, he needs help. With as much as hes paying his attorney, and as competent as his attorney is, he could very well convince the court to drop the felony and convert it to a misdemeanor. She told me before she died that she had forgiven him & she never thought she would. u%\la7vQ8V$=SDkMZjDGZ1Ma-=X|P)qJ-ck`koxRx^D"N;~*;('q. Not just over the alcohol, but based on his other actions (using a cheating site etc) he has disqualified himself. He was 78. Its great the people at her church were nice to her and paid for her funeral, but from what I recall of the story, she ended up dying even after entering a hospital? I dont see myself sharing about deep grief over the sudden loss of a loved one with anyone, especially not in the family. an invitation to share his/her story. Not sorry I did, either. Please keep our nations decision makers in prayer over the next few weeks. I dont see the comparison as connecting to RC Sproul Jr., except for the coincidence that they are both alcoholics. and putting things into strong ideas with smooth words along with the willingness to step in and do that from time to time. I say its ironic because you seem so terribly concerned about keeping RC Jr in his church, while your typical recovering alkie would say just the opposite. If you want to raise some new issues, go for it. We took him in to help in his recovery. And as far as dark chocolate goes, I didnt have any with my wine (oops, gave it away), but I did have 1/4 of my Trader Joes dark chocolate and almond bar that I am savoring. During that time, I would have a half glass of wine each evening which dulled the discomfort. We have really lucked out (in the old days I would have said been blessed) in the MHPs who are helping various members of our family. Sproul 2. In my family, there was a sudden death and one of the parents reacted with extremely heavy drinking (binge) and ended up with delirium, shaking, and experiencing auditory hallucinations and feelings of being persecuted a psychotic break. You and I dont have the compulsion to drink, so its easy for us to say just dont drink. But I know of many people including Christians who have fought that battle (alcoholism) mostly in secret. I havent even been posting much to this blog in the last few months. (And the same goes for HUG where he contemptuously described me as righteous. the process that you just described: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pvpd6wCeM4. With regard to RC2, along with his alcoholism, and the alleged wife spanking which I posted about several years ago, there are numerous reports of spiritual abuse, failure to submit to authority, church discipline, etc. Barbaras comment on Friday at 5:40 p.m. Yes, alcoholics need consequences to their actions to help them hit bottom. very things, along with allowing a number of guys to use her as they chose, which often put her childrens lives in jeopardy. I would not doubt it all. I advised him that with Jesus help he could choose not to walk that path. As the kid of an alcoholic & as a (former) wife who had her husband arrested (& convicted) for drunk driving I have to admit my patience with problem drinkers is very very thin because of the levels of devastation they inflict on others. Both men have left a trail of shattered relationships. So he may have already been to treatment. Gracious hostess, no doubt that its sin gone amok. Now to deal with your concerns in a more general sense (and this is where it seems we differ), in my experience most churches arent in any way qualified to deal with alkies. Perhaps you have very little experience with people (men and women) who have gotten clean and sober. i think we can do without insinuations like this. Here is what he REALLY said. [citation needed] Had she been confronted and expelled from church, none of this would have happened. Secondarily, what were the terms of his probation? Velour wrote: Mr. F- if you dont agree with RC Sprouls theology that is your business and Im not interested . an immoral person, [sexual immorality?] Sprouls alcoholism and the fact hes a jerk are two separate issues. 2. Our group was a safe place for parents. Same in books on domestic violence those who are experts on DV will tell readers dont waste time bringing your abusive husband into marriage counseling, because marriage counseling is ineffective at treating abuse. Commercials always depict drinkers as so happy, having fun, etc. and me nasty too and to the whole understanding of the complexity of the problems. My specific concern about Barbaras comment, and others like it, is thats NOT how substance abusers are supposed to be handled, or for that matter their families. (LogOut/ Another poster posted Scripture from one of Pauls letters about not fellowshipping with people who proclaim faith in Christ Jesus, but live a life of continual unrepentant sin. Call me a cynic, but RC Jrs track record on repentance is abysmal. The hotter it is, the faster those icy cold spirits will flow. Im glad you are no longer around them and their hateful views. I no longer read Barbaras blog for that reason either. 2. Till I found TWW & SSB. He was a success story. We also have personal experience with RC Jr. Do you realise how offensive that is? I have updated the post with photos of the injuries I sustained almost 45 years ago because someone chose to drink and drive. We dont know. Sproul 2 should be kicked out of his church and that he wasnt really a believer, etc. Here is a lovely article by a Christian recovering alcoholic Heather about her journey as a Christian and an alcoholic. I was always scared stiff riding with him, literally praying all the way home, and I didnt even know the Lord then. That will certainly be my prayer for him, his family, former church members that he has harmed, and present church members that he is harming. Oh, good grief. Welcome to TWW! There is a difference. I wasnt raised with the concept that your church keeps tabs on what youre up to. Many of us have suffered tragedies. Please stop. The exchange of viewpoints is very effective. Velour wrote: I believe I may have been on this blog longer than Velour has, though Ive not been posting here as much the last 2 3 months. To me, the bottom line is Does RSJ want help? Should the entire church have been warned to stay away from Daisy, to have nothing to do with her, and that shes probably destined for Hell (because she just hasnt gotten over it and shaped up?)? which doesnt answer your question at all, and indeed I dont suppose improves on what you could have said yourself! He never went to jail longer than three days because he was a Southern Baptist preachers son. a form of abuse that sounds remarkably similar to the same abuse RC Jr has inflicted on dozens of people. I think God understands this. Confession that his drunkenness IS sin (it sounds like that alone would be a huge step), then repentance toward God (making a U-turn and living a completely different life) AND toward others (asking forgiveness of everyone he has wronged) these would be HUGE steps for him. False guilt attaches to many people in this area because some traditions have prescribed a rule against alcohol when no such law is present in the Bible. Hes has experienced tragedy and he needs treatment but at the core is still an odious personality. Nourishment 101: R U Acquainted With Christ?. I liked the way he was thinking and agreed with his conclusions and really liked the way he dealt with the problem and the patient. When you spend so much of your life covering up sins, Im sure there is a need to numb that kind of pain. In this particular case, RC2, there is more involved than just the alcohol issue. So I was only saying what the Bible says. Jr's church in Virginia, Saint Peter Presbyterian Church. How is name-calling them and shaming them carrying the message to the person who still suffers?. He has been through enough pain without your unfounded accusations and threats even that if his son hurts someone it will be on his head . Heres the pattern thats been repeated many times over the years: RC commits some grievous transgression, gets busted, is held accountable, confesses and repents, but then is quickly shown to have simply used a show of confession and repentance as a means to an end. I did not use the word divorce. Go back and read what I said. (I think the judge wanted to shake him up.) Had therapy and continues to do so. No record and right back into ministry he goes! Velour wrote: Youve posted several comments about this and never mentioned that Sproul 2s church should get him into treatment for alcoholism (and whatever else ails him). Youre making blanket statements that arent helpful when there are too many variables. im very sorry you had to go through that. I happen to see the public health aspects of alcoholism and drug addiction differently than you and Barbara (and Julie Anne) see them. I had already read your first comment about Barbara and codependency. I did go back to my faith family. When there are cover-ups to protect the leader, whole families shunned because they dont like the church, those are certainly red flags. I suppose those who loved his late father, R.C. That was wrong of Sproul Jr. and he did an incredible amount of damage. We cant assume they cant be helped, no. The only way to get an alcoholic to seek treatment is to pull the rug out from under them: no money, support, etc. When court go through process you are instructed by your Atty and the judge how to plea to give you time to look at all alternatives. He is survived by his wife, Vesta, their two children, Sherrie Dorotiak and Robert Craig Sproul, eleven grandchildren, and seven great-grandchildren. Sproul is survived by his childhood sweetheart and wife of fifty-seven years, Vesta Ann (Voorhis); their daughter, Sherrie Sproul Dorotiak, and her husband, Dennis; and their son, Dr. R.C. The church frequently blows it on things like this, without proper training and guidance. Menu. I would agree that Sproul shouldnt be disqualified due to his ADULT sons issues. Acting like a sixteen-year-old boy is not manly, it is obnoxious and childish. Barbara Roberts wrote: He needs to make amends to all of the people he hurt and to confess publicly at the churches where he pastored about the damage he did. But were not there yet. So for right now thats as much as Im going to say, at least until I can start to feel like this is a safe place. . We really need to drop it as this point. And now that Im attacking other Christians for saying that there is something seriously wrong with how these churches carry out Biblical Church Discipline and that its from the Dark Ages. . They also have to be willing to cut themselves off from all their friends (the only friends alkies keep are drinkers and other alkies) and make new sober friends. obituary "R.C. The difference, of course, is that the dementia patient cant help it. 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